Rayman 3 scores

Talk about Rayman himself and Rayman games!

Moderator: English moderators

Cut
Chef Dragon
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:53 pm
Tings: 19617

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Cut » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:57 pm

1234 wrote:Actually I'd probably gladly like to join, but I'm far too shy for something like that. I wouldn't even do something like that with people, who I know for a longer time than I know you, simply because I'd feel strange and uncomfortable. I know it probably sounds ridiculous and hard to believe, but I hope it's somehow understandable anyway. :) Still, thanks for asking!
Maybe this is just a misunderstanding? We're not talking via microphones on skype, just writing text messages the same way we do here, so the only difference is that you get a notification everytime someone posted something new. It's just more convenient because you can have discussions about things without having to wait 3 hours until someone reads your response :)
Anyway, if you're not interested that's fine too of course!

Hunchman801
Bad Rayman
Posts: 77675
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:50 pm
Location: Paris, France
Contact:
Tings: 555795

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Hunchman801 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:42 pm

Thanks for streaming Cut, I just watched some of it and I'll be sure to check out the rest later.
Cut wrote:Anyway, I think the Wiki is a very suitable platform, because it also saves me from the extra work of creating a webspace. I'm not very competent with the wiki-software, is it possible to create a separate "Portal" for Rayman 3 Scoring? You can check out the actual Wikipedia, every significant topic or science has it's own portal with links to sub-categories and important articles. Because IMO easy navigation is the bread and butter of a good walkthrough.
That's a very good point. Currently, the scoring content on RayWiki is limited to the Rayman 3 scoring system article and a couple outdated solutions (linked in the main article). In order to decide on the new structure, we need to make a list of the content we want to see in there. If we're just gonna keep one main explanatory article and one solution per level, then we're probably better off sticking to the current structure with one main page that links to the others. But if we're going to create articles for glitches, tricks and whatnot, then an actual portal will be needed and I can indeed make one (keeping in mind that in order to make navigation easier it's better not to create too many articles with little content in them but rather to group them in such cases). So, everyone please let me know all the topics you'd like to broach and we can create a structure for that together. 8)
Cut wrote:I know my constant requests might be annoying, but you guys are still sure that you don't want to join in on any discord or skype or anything like that?
I'm not sure a chat like Discord or Skype is a very good idea as it has the major drawback of not providing any easily accessible, permanent history like a forum does. This topic is a goldmine and, if you include the original one (linked in the first post), it shows the progress in Rayman 3 scoring since 2003, thirteen years ago, and therefore has great historical value. I'm not quite sure what will be left a Skype conversation in thirteen years' time but I can guarantee that this website will still be here.

It is also worth noting that the activity of the scoring community, however high lately, will go through phases and when it's not that active anymore, the perks of a chat will be gone and only the drawbacks will be left. Among them, the fact that chats are not well suited for the long, elaborate messages that we often see in this thread.

Not sure what my opinion's worth though, it's the forum admin talking after all. I'm probably biased and engaged in a hopeless battle against the slow death of online forums, but hey, might as well voice my opinion. ;)
Image

1234
Vendeur
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:16 pm
Tings: 9804

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by 1234 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:53 pm

Cut wrote:Maybe this is just a misunderstanding? We're not talking via microphones on skype, just writing text messages the same way we do here, so the only difference is that you get a notification everytime someone posted something new. It's just more convenient because you can have discussions about things without having to wait 3 hours until someone reads your response :)
Anyway, if you're not interested that's fine too of course!
Ah, in this case this is a misunderstanding indeed. :mrgreen:
The reason why I sometimes respond a little bit delayed is not necessarily because I didn't notice the new post(s) (at least not always), but rather because I want to test or check sth. before or maybe think about the new posts, since they often include ideas, suggestions etc.; or do some calculations. Sometimes I'm also busied with other things, so that i can't respond anyway. So in short: Even if I'd be notified immediately, I think I probably wouldn't be able to respond at once anyway.
If you still think that it'd be better if we all were part of a skype group, I could possibly change my mind and join, but by now I think that this site's completely sufficient too. :) [Edit: Also after reading Hunch's post, I think in a way he's right about what he wrote.]

Edit:
Hunchman801 wrote:If we're just gonna keep one main explanatory article and one solution per level, then we're probably better off sticking to the current structure with one main page that links to the others. But if we're going to create articles for glitches, tricks and whatnot, then an actual portal will be needed and I can indeed make one (keeping in mind that in order to make navigation easier it's better not to create too many articles with little content in them but rather to group them in such cases). So, everyone please let me know all the topics you'd like to broach and we can create a structure for that together. 8)
I think that we should create more than just one solution per level, so, if possible, a portal would be great in my opinion.
I don't want to decide, how this should look like, so at first I'll wait until someone provides a suggestion for a possible structure. Then I'll maybe add some own ideas. :wink:
FC: 51.570 | CF: 129.750 | BOM: 100.899 | LOTLD: 122.659 | DOTK: 110.929 | LS: 43.200 | SBTC: 111.459 | HH: 119.849 | TOTL: 110.499

Total: 900.814

Hunchman801
Bad Rayman
Posts: 77675
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:50 pm
Location: Paris, France
Contact:
Tings: 555795

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Hunchman801 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:47 am

Sure, how many different solutions per level do you think would be needed? What would differentiate them? I can think of regular, non-IPG, glitchless, but I might be overlooking some stuff.
Image

Cut
Chef Dragon
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:53 pm
Tings: 19617

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Cut » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:55 am

Since Glitchless usually changes the majority of combos in a level, while the IPG only affects certain parts, I'd suggest to create a glitchless and a non-glitchless version, and the non-glitchless-version just serves a non-IPG and an IPG-solution in the parts where it's relevant.

I also would like to see the following articles:
  • Scoring system beginners information (I think that exists already?)
  • Glitches, Tricks and Techniques overview (maybe with the support of RibShark?)
  • Improvement guide (I'm at score xxx.xxx now, what should I try next?)

Hunchman801
Bad Rayman
Posts: 77675
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:50 pm
Location: Paris, France
Contact:
Tings: 555795

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Hunchman801 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:23 am

Yeah, there's a bit of content in the Rayman 3 scoring system article already. Does some of it overlap with what you'd like to see in the new ones?
Image

Maz
Murray
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:21 am
Tings: 20268

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Maz » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:16 pm

On that note, I've already had half a walkthrough on FC. Since the only difference between No-Glitch-/Glitch-Version is the Tribelle-Combo in Part 4, I guess you guys can just write that up and leave the rest to me (unless someone already has a full-on written walkthrough). Other than that, I will happily provide all the No-Glitch-Walkthroughs needed ;)

I just need to know where it makes a difference? FC4, CF1, CF2, CF3, BOM3, BOM4, BOM6, LOTLD2, LOTLD5, DOTK7, DOTK8, SBTC1, SBTC3, HH1, HH3, TOTL1 and TOTL2, did I miss anything?
FC: 54.450 | CF: 131.900 (PB: 134.150) | BOM: 100.899 | LOTLD: 122.619 (PB: 123.839) | DOTK: 118.640 | LS: 43.110 (PB: 43.470) | SBTC: 110.479 | HH: 120.609 | TOTL: 118.689

Total: 921.395 (old savegame, current Total: 902.045)

RibShark
Tribelle
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:03 pm
Contact:
Tings: 55

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by RibShark » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:50 pm

Cut wrote:Since Glitchless usually changes the majority of combos in a level, while the IPG only affects certain parts, I'd suggest to create a glitchless and a non-glitchless version, and the non-glitchless-version just serves a non-IPG and an IPG-solution in the parts where it's relevant.

I also would like to see the following articles:
  • Glitches, Tricks and Techniques overview (maybe with the support of RibShark?)
I already did this on the Speedrunning article. That being said, it might be worth it to move that information to a separate article, as it's useful for both Speedrunning and Scoring.

Hunchman801
Bad Rayman
Posts: 77675
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:50 pm
Location: Paris, France
Contact:
Tings: 555795

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Hunchman801 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:54 pm

All right, I'll wait until we find a consensus for the number of solutions per level as according to Maz there aren't so many differences between them.

As for the Rayman 3 section of the speedrunning article, well yeah we probably should move it to an article called "List of glitches in Rayman 3" or something of the kind.
Image

1234
Vendeur
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:16 pm
Tings: 9804

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by 1234 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:46 pm

Hunchman801 wrote:Sure, how many different solutions per level do you think would be needed? What would differentiate them? I can think of regular, non-IPG, glitchless, but I might be overlooking some stuff.
Sorry, my wording was a little bit bad here. When I wrote "we should create more than just one solution per level", I didn't mean "more solutions" (btw, two solutions should be fine, one with glitches and one without), but I meant more articles in general, e.g. one for glitches, one for general information etc.. So you can forget my last post, it's not relevant any more. :wink:

I personally don't care much about how this will look like. It's only important to me that the articles will be close together, so that they will be easily accessable and that nothing important will miss. So, what I want to say is that you can gladly decide about it. :)

I'm fine with Cuts suggestion. Originally I also wanted to create a list, which shows the amount of each kind of item in the levels and in the game, since it might be interesting to e.g. know the amount of yellow gems in the game. However it's not really relevant for scoring, so it'll be ok for me, if we don't include that.
Maz wrote:I just need to know where it makes a difference? FC4, CF1, CF2, CF3, BOM3, BOM4, BOM6, LOTLD2, LOTLD5, DOTK7, DOTK8, SBTC1, SBTC3, HH1, HH3, TOTL1 and TOTL2, did I miss anything?
When we talk about the optimal versions, then there are some parts I can add:

FC3: In the beginning you need to skip all piggybanks. After getting the vortex, perform a SJ to reach the previous room. Break all piggybanks and get the gems.
BOM5: the triple glitch?
(LOTLD1 (?)): In the preparations you kick two turtles to the upper level. Afterwards you need to get to the upper level yourself. In my video I used a glitch for that, but maybe it's also possible to reach the upper level glitchless (e.g. with only one turtle)?
LOTLD3: At the beginning you need a SJ to pull the lever (for the 30 points) and to skip the wooden door.
DOTK1: We use a SJ to get the gems near the knaaren with a powerup.
DOTK3: We use a SJ to get the green gem with a powerup
(HH2 (?)): ... in case we want to use the GW in the first room. I wrote "in case", because, as far as I know, we decided to ban the GW because of platform differences!?

I hope I didn't miss anything. :P
Hunchman801 wrote:All right, I'll wait until we find a consensus for the number of solutions per level as according to Maz there aren't so many differences between them.
With those additions, the two versions differ a little bit more now. Also we have to consider that in future even more glitches might be found and used. We also want to add easier versions of combos for the solutions. In some of the easier versions glitches are used, unlike in the optimal version, so this will create even more differences. --> I think it'd be definitely better to make two solutions for each level, one with glitches and one without. :)
FC: 51.570 | CF: 129.750 | BOM: 100.899 | LOTLD: 122.659 | DOTK: 110.929 | LS: 43.200 | SBTC: 111.459 | HH: 119.849 | TOTL: 110.499

Total: 900.814

RibShark
Tribelle
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:03 pm
Contact:
Tings: 55

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by RibShark » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:08 pm

1234 wrote:(LOTLD1 (?)): In the preparations you kick two turtles to the upper level. Afterwards you need to get to the upper level yourself. In my video I used a glitch for that, but maybe it's also possible to reach the upper level glitchless (e.g. with only one turtle)?
While I don't know a way to get to the upper level glitchless, there is a much easier glitch that doesn't require the rocket (if that would even be helpful, maybe you could take another power-up there to get the gems with double points?). Just jump, push against the wall, hold look-mode then tap jump to helicopter for a small amount of time. You should get a midair superjump high enough to reach that level.

Cut
Chef Dragon
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:53 pm
Tings: 19617

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Cut » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:41 pm

Yeah, I still agree that the Glitchless and Non-Glitchless leaderboard should be separated.

I'd like to add that the Glitches & Techniques article should also include techniques, that are within the realm of legit actions, but are just not very intiutive (using curved shots to gain extra combo time, rolling from ledges, platform-tricks etc.)

I'd also volunteer to write the following walkthroughs:
Clearleaf Forest with both IPGs (once we figured everything out)
Bog of Murk (101.299 and possibly the new Maximum)
Desert of the Knaaren
Hoodlums' Headquarters with IPG
Tower of the Leptys with IPG

1234
Vendeur
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:16 pm
Tings: 9804

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by 1234 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:16 pm

RibShark wrote:While I don't know a way to get to the upper level glitchless, there is a much easier glitch that doesn't require the rocket (if that would even be helpful, maybe you could take another power-up there to get the gems with double points?). Just jump, push against the wall, hold look-mode then tap jump to helicopter for a small amount of time. You should get a midair superjump high enough to reach that level.
I tried this glitch too. Sometimes it worked, but often I got a softlock when I used the glitch. Maybe I did something wrong? Thanks for the information anyway. :)
Btw, we take the gems with the HMF. :wink:
Cut wrote:I'd also volunteer to write the following walkthroughs:
Clearleaf Forest with both IPGs (once we figured everything out)
Bog of Murk (101.299 and possibly the new Maximum)
Desert of the Knaaren
Hoodlums' Headquarters with IPG
Tower of the Leptys with IPG
As I said in one of my posts, by now I can only volunteer to write the solutions for FC (the rest, which Maz didn't do yet), BOM, LOTLD and DOTK.
If you want to deal with BOM and DOTK, then I'm fine with it, but then there won't be much left to do for me. For me it'd be ok, but you'd have to do most of the work then, whereas I'd be sitting around lazily. :P
FC: 51.570 | CF: 129.750 | BOM: 100.899 | LOTLD: 122.659 | DOTK: 110.929 | LS: 43.200 | SBTC: 111.459 | HH: 119.849 | TOTL: 110.499

Total: 900.814

Maz
Murray
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:21 am
Tings: 20268

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Maz » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:59 pm

1234 wrote: (the rest, which Maz didn't do yet)
I'm actually finished with FC3 by now. I've also done FC5 (because that's literally just one sentence) and FC6 (not much text either). That leaves only part 4, where we need two versions anyway :P
(By the way, should I actually include the 4-Matuvu-Combo or should I just use the good ol' 3-Matuvu-Combo + the second Matuvu-Combo instead, seeing how noone has ever succeeded in the former without tool assistance?)

I guess it would only make sense for you to make the walkthrough for LOTLD, since you should be the most knowledgable out of us for this level. And I don't think that this is really fresh in your mind, but would you be willing to do the Non-IPG-Glitch-Walthroughs for CF1/CF3? Seeing how you seem so hungry for work :mrgreen:

Cut could probably do LS, too, since he has arguably the most experience in this level (e.g. I for one don't actually know how to play part 3 perfectly). Who's willing to do SBTC though? Part 3 is an absolute mess, so count me out on that.

Also, something which totally slipped my mind until now since we are all PC-Players anyway: Do we just simply make walkthroughs for the PC-Version? I mean, there's things like the Lum-Glitch, the missing Vortex in FC4, a platform-dependent amount of hoodflyers in TOTL3 etc. What to do about that?
FC: 54.450 | CF: 131.900 (PB: 134.150) | BOM: 100.899 | LOTLD: 122.619 (PB: 123.839) | DOTK: 118.640 | LS: 43.110 (PB: 43.470) | SBTC: 110.479 | HH: 120.609 | TOTL: 118.689

Total: 921.395 (old savegame, current Total: 902.045)

Cut
Chef Dragon
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:53 pm
Tings: 19617

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Cut » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:33 pm

Maz wrote:Cut could probably do LS, too, since he has arguably the most experience in this level (e.g. I for one don't actually know how to play part 3 perfectly). Who's willing to do SBTC though? Part 3 is an absolute mess, so count me out on that.
Do be honest, for now I'd just link all the videos for SBTC3 (Mountain Goat has a video that shows taking the Green Gem for 7500 points in combo with a final score of 111.809 I believe) and wait until we found out how to get 130k.
Maz wrote:Also, something which totally slipped my mind until now since we are all PC-Players anyway: Do we just simply make walkthroughs for the PC-Version? I mean, there's things like the Lum-Glitch, the missing Vortex in FC4, a platform-dependent amount of hoodflyers in TOTL3 etc. What to do about that?
These parts are usually specific enough to just write different versions for these parts. I believe that almost all combos in this game should be explained in multiple different versions with several difficulty levels and point outcomes. The platform difference versions are actually pretty easy to hande since they usually don't affect the order of how a part is played. Different versions of other combos might very well though (just think of all situations where one difficult combo can be split up into 2 at a reasonable cost of points

I actually came up with a concept of how to deal with different combo versions (from my own document):
you enumerate them in a 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 fashion and use colors for each number
Green: this is the recommended version of this combo. It's well balanced between point outcome and difficulty, and usually suitable to reach the maximum score in a level
Red: this is a (much) harder version of this combo, yielding significantly more points. It should be chosen when the player needs extra buffer due to point loss in other stages of the level. Also, sometimes the nature of a level requires to play a (or all) red combos to reach the maximum score (in FC for instance, because you technically have no wiggle room at all)
Yellow: this version yields less points than the recommended version and is easier. It's not recommended for players, who are aiming for the maximum score in a level, however it's a useful version for weaker players
Blue: this version is only available to certain platforms. It has substantial advantages over the version that is playable for everybody, because otherwise it shouldn't be mentioned in the walkthrough, as it tries to keep platform-differences as minimal as possible
Violet: this combo is historical and wouldn't be played this way today, however it was known as the best version to play this for a long time. Versions like this will be added to the solution occasionally to demonstrate how the game has changed over the years

2.3 A: the "A" indicates, that this version changes the order of how this part as played, or affects future combos. Should there be another version with an "A" in it at a later stage of the part, that version has to be played if this version was played. Also vice versa, combo "5.3 A" can only be played if you played "2.3 A" beforehand

so that brings us to another important issue: the formatting. Every player has a different writing-style and that's cool, but IMO things like the version enumeration should be universal for all walkthroughs, so we have to agree on something here.

I also want to suggest that every Level should have an Overview at the very beginning. It gives a quick introduction-text, quick links to all relevant videos to this level and an overview of how many points are possible in every part.

Also, something I came up with in my own walkthrough is Checkpoints. Checkpoints are placed at certain points within a part, and they can be used to see whether a player has a score that's still suitable to get the maximum score in this level. This is very useful when a player makes a little mistake and is not sure whether to restart or continue. An example for this would be, if for instance in Hoodlums Headquarters part 2, after the 2nd room, you would just say "Checkpoint: 56.800 points", which means that if the player is below 56.800 points, he usually can't reach the maximum of 109.009 points anymore. If a level has multiple maximum scores, obviously there has to be multiple checkpoint-scores. Of course it's up to the writers judgement of what he thinks is a good time to put a checkpoint in.

EDIT: also just a quick heads up, the Rayman Combo Manager drives me nuts right now, but it's making progress. New features are:
- change captions of same point values (so instead of +10 points always being labeled as "Y", there is now different labels available for every point amount)
- convert your combo into text with one click, that can be copied into your walkthrough easily
- combo-database. Allows you to save all your combos within the program, sorted by levels and parts, arranged in a tree-structure. Give your combo a name, say in which level and part it has to go, and save it in your database. Then come back to it later, pick the combo you need and get all the information with one click.

1234
Vendeur
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:16 pm
Tings: 9804

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by 1234 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:52 pm

Maz wrote:By the way, should I actually include the 4-Matuvu-Combo or should I just use the good ol' 3-Matuvu-Combo + the second Matuvu-Combo instead
I actually like Cuts idea to include several versions of the combos and e.g. mark them with a color; so imo both combos, the 3-matuvu- and the 4-matuvu-combo should be included.
Cut, would you actually mark the 4 matuvu green or red? I mean it's clearly the hardest version of the combo, but it's also the recommended version for the maximum.
Maz wrote:I guess it would only make sense for you to make the walkthrough for LOTLD, since you should be the most knowledgable out of us for this level. And I don't think that this is really fresh in your mind, but would you be willing to do the Non-IPG-Glitch-Walthroughs for CF1/CF3? Seeing how you seem so hungry for work :mrgreen:

Cut could probably do LS, too, since he has arguably the most experience in this level (e.g. I for one don't actually know how to play part 3 perfectly). Who's willing to do SBTC though? Part 3 is an absolute mess, so count me out on that.
Ok, then I'll probably deal with LOTLD. One problem is that I didn't finish testing part 2 and 3 completly yet, so I even don't know, whether the 3 piggybank-red gem-connection is possible at all. In the next days I'll probably continue with LOTLD then.

Actually I'm not really hungry for work. :P I just think that it's fair to distribute the work evenly, because I don't believe that you and Cut want to write everything on your own. :wink:
As for CF, I'll probably start with some other levels first, but when I'm done, I can try to work that out as far as I can.
As for SBTC, I don't really want to do that either. :mrgreen: I'd suggest that the one, who will finish his solutions first, can try to write a solution for this level too.
Cut wrote:so that brings us to another important issue: the formatting. Every player has a different writing-style and that's cool, but IMO things like the version enumeration should be universal for all walkthroughs, so we have to agree on something here.
I'm fully with you. That's actually why I wanted to wait until the first solution will be written, so that I can adapt to the style and the enumeration etc.. Maybe someone can post / attach an example of a pretty much finished solution for a level, so that the others can give some improvement suggestions or say that they're fine with it. When everybody agreed, we can use this solution as a kind of template for the other levels.

I like the idea of including an overview and checkpoints for each level.

Also nice to hear that your program is making progress. :)

In HH3 I have another idea how to continue after renewing the lockjaw: Collect the gems on the hooks clockwise. After taking the last gem, swing towards one of the moving platforms of the conveyor. As soon as it's possible, kill the elite monger above with a curved shot. Then quickly jump on the conveyor-platforms and break the piggybank in time. I have no idea, whether it's possible, but at first glance, it seems to be worth to try.
FC: 51.570 | CF: 129.750 | BOM: 100.899 | LOTLD: 122.659 | DOTK: 110.929 | LS: 43.200 | SBTC: 111.459 | HH: 119.849 | TOTL: 110.499

Total: 900.814

Maz
Murray
Posts: 704
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:21 am
Tings: 20268

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Maz » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:20 am

I certainly like Cut's ideas as well, but I have a few questions still:

1.) So does that mean that I should put the main focus for FC4 on the version WITHOUT the Vortex - since that's the only way all platforms can play this room - and just mention that other platforms have access to the Vortex earlier on?

2.) What about the Lum-Glitch though? I've been fooling around in TOTL2 (non-IPG) a bit and I'm not there yet, but it may be possible to get the Green Gem for 9k in Combo. If memory serves, that leaves PC-Players with ~103k after the Green-Gem-Combo (at most), but the Lum-Glitch would obviously allow for a much higher Score, potentially even a higher maximum. I guess the same would also go for DOTK since the massive amount of extra Points might allow you to just play the improved 2-Green-Gems-Combo for a better Score. How would you handle things like that?

3.) I really like the idea of including "historically important" Combos as well, but how would you do that? If you just put them in there with the other Combos, things are probably gonna get messy... maybe it would nice to give these historical Combos their own column at, like, the end of the walkthrough?

4.) I'll probably have to figure this out on my own, but how would the whole green/red/yellow thing work for glitchless CF? Red would obviously be the maximum of ~114k, green might be like 111k, but what about yellow? Since you can get 109.789 in CF4 anyway, it wouldn't be worth going for a lower Score in CF3. And with that much wiggle room, it would change the level entirely as you could lose ~20k Points. Surely that would almost require its own walkthrough? I don't mind writing 2 versions if it comes down to it, but I just want to make sure that I don't put in TOO much work :D

5.) This may partly answer half of my own questions now that I think about it (plus you might've wanted to do it like that anyway and I was just too dumb to get it) but what about moving the big Combos into an extra column entirely so that we could simply "link" to the different versions of the Combos? For instance:
Maz wrote: Now jump to the top platform carefully, without taking any gems. Climb up and tap forward in quick succession to skip the yellow gem at the entrance. Then get on the platform and repetitively shoot the button to reach the floor above. Lock onto André, jump on the tiny curb at the edge of the platform you're standing on and charge your fist to prepare for the next big combo. [This would all stay in because it doesn't change no matter how you play the Combo]

There is different versions of this Combo, so take your pick! [Just made this up on the spot; would obviously think of something better for the actual walkthrough, but the main point is that you're made aware of different possibilites]

The 3-Matuvu-Combo [Klick to get forwarded to the recommended version]
The 4-Matuvu-Combo [Klick to get forwarded to the optimal version]
The 3-Matuvu-Combo [Klick to get forwarded to the easier version]
The 3-Matuvu-Combo [Klick to get forwarded to the historical version]
I think that would also go along well with your idea of doing checkpoints (obviously not for FC, but you get what I mean).

6.) In principal, I also like the idea of "A", "B", "C" and so on, but what if there's multiple possibilities? What if there's 3 Combos in a part ("1", "2", "3"), each of which has 3 different versions and you can go 1B + 2B + 3B, but since 1A yields more points than 1B you could also just go 1A + 2C + 3B? I hope I'm not making this too complicated, but my point is that in levels like LOTLD there's potentially so many different versions of each Combo that it's hard to group them like that.
FC: 54.450 | CF: 131.900 (PB: 134.150) | BOM: 100.899 | LOTLD: 122.619 (PB: 123.839) | DOTK: 118.640 | LS: 43.110 (PB: 43.470) | SBTC: 110.479 | HH: 120.609 | TOTL: 118.689

Total: 921.395 (old savegame, current Total: 902.045)

Cut
Chef Dragon
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:53 pm
Tings: 19617

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Cut » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:13 pm

1234 wrote:1.) So does that mean that I should put the main focus for FC4 on the version WITHOUT the Vortex - since that's the only way all platforms can play this room - and just mention that other platforms have access to the Vortex earlier on?
As I already mentioned, FC is a little weird because technically you have to go for the perfect version to reach the maximum. There are some edge-cases (DTUCC found a way to get the first fairy in FC4 in 11th place, which is very very hard and only worth 20 points extra afaik), but the majority of the time, it's hard to really recommend a version because it's all up to the writers judgement. Maybe you can target a specific final score that is well balanced between difficulty and outcome (for example the "easiest" way to break 50k) points, so all those version would be marked green? I'm not quite sure in this case, do whatever you think is best honestly. You and Maz are more competent in FC than I am.
Maz wrote:1.) So does that mean that I should put the main focus for FC4 on the version WITHOUT the Vortex - since that's the only way all platforms can play this room - and just mention that other platforms have access to the Vortex earlier on?
I think we should just explain both versions equally. As said, I think platform differences are fine as long as they provide a significant advantage over the version that is available to everyone. In SBTC for instance, I'd consider alternative versions that use lums-glitches to get certain elements with a higher multiplier to be highly useless because stuff like that is just not necessary, however I would totally mention the possibility of abusing the Hoodflyer-Lums-Glitch in the first Room of HH2 because that provides significantly more points and allows console players to skip the Heckler combo comfortably.
Maz wrote:2.) What about the Lum-Glitch though? I've been fooling around in TOTL2 (non-IPG) a bit and I'm not there yet, but it may be possible to get the Green Gem for 9k in Combo. If memory serves, that leaves PC-Players with ~103k after the Green-Gem-Combo (at most), but the Lum-Glitch would obviously allow for a much higher Score, potentially even a higher maximum. I guess the same would also go for DOTK since the massive amount of extra Points might allow you to just play the improved 2-Green-Gems-Combo for a better Score. How would you handle things like that?
Even though I really hate these differences, we can't do anything about it and I think just keeping those Lums-Glitch-Combos secret to avoid other players taking advantage of that is at least as unfair as the Lums-Glitch itself, so we should just straight up explain all these versions. DOTK is similar, currently there is no problem with this issue but as soon as MandM wakes up again, I'm pretty sure that he'll go ahead and crush DOTK-scores with the Hoodflyer-Lums-Glitch in part 7, and that's completely reasonable.
Maz wrote:3.) I really like the idea of including "historically important" Combos as well, but how would you do that? If you just put them in there with the other Combos, things are probably gonna get messy... maybe it would nice to give these historical Combos their own column at, like, the end of the walkthrough?
Actually yes, you're right. Let's not make the walkthrough even messier with this. Just a quick example of what I consider a good historical combo to be mentioned would be: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GjNlA29-GQ
this was invented by Jona back in 2003 and was known as the best version to play this room for the longest time.
Maz wrote:4.) I'll probably have to figure this out on my own, but how would the whole green/red/yellow thing work for glitchless CF? Red would obviously be the maximum of ~114k, green might be like 111k, but what about yellow? Since you can get 109.789 in CF4 anyway, it wouldn't be worth going for a lower Score in CF3. And with that much wiggle room, it would change the level entirely as you could lose ~20k Points. Surely that would almost require its own walkthrough? I don't mind writing 2 versions if it comes down to it, but I just want to make sure that I don't put in TOO much work :D
Yellow generally is supposed to help weaker players who want to reach a lower maximum score, and 109.789 after part 4 is a perfect example for that. So the yellow versions would just yield enough points to finish part 3 with the required 97k-ish score. You're right though that this almost deserves it's own walkthrough. Hmm...
Maz wrote:5.) This may partly answer half of my own questions now that I think about it (plus you might've wanted to do it like that anyway and I was just too dumb to get it) but what about moving the big Combos into an extra column entirely so that we could simply "link" to the different versions of the Combos? For instance:
Yes, I like that better, because otherwise every combo just ends up being a huge wall of text and it's hard to figure out what's still the same combo and where the next combo starts.
Maz wrote: 6.) In principal, I also like the idea of "A", "B", "C" and so on, but what if there's multiple possibilities? What if there's 3 Combos in a part ("1", "2", "3"), each of which has 3 different versions and you can go 1B + 2B + 3B, but since 1A yields more points than 1B you could also just go 1A + 2C + 3B? I hope I'm not making this too complicated, but my point is that in levels like LOTLD there's potentially so many different versions of each Combo that it's hard to group them like that.
I had this problem exactly once when I wrote the old german HH-walkthrough, and it was only a little issue in part 3. I mean, I see the problem in LOTLD3, but isn't the huge amount of versions just a consequence of not having a clear plan for this level yet? I think it'll be much easier to write a walkthrough for that as soon as we figured out the optimal way to play this level.


This whole Green-Red-Yellow-system was invented back when almost every level had like 5k points of wiggle-room because basically there was a lot of improvements, but none of them were good enough to break the maximum score. Now with all the new findings in the past months, this throws a little wrench into this concept.

Dildo_Potter
Mr Sax
Posts: 1323
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:02 pm
Location: FR
Contact:
Tings: 28678

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by Dildo_Potter » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:40 pm

Tons of post since I last came..

Anyway, I had deleted all my games, don't ask. I just finished R3 this morning. Gotta replay everything.

1234
Vendeur
Posts: 305
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:16 pm
Tings: 9804

Re: Rayman 3 scores

Post by 1234 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:59 am

Dildo_Potter wrote:Anyway, I had deleted all my games, don't ask. I just finished R3 this morning. Gotta replay everything.
That's unfortunate. :|
Anyway, good luck replaying the levels! :)

As for the new combo in BOM3, I had to change some parts of it to make it possible at all. We should be able to get at least 32570 points in part 3 now, with 19730 points in the main combo. If played perfectly, you could possibly get some more points, but that requires some more extensive testing.
Maybe I'll try to record the combo somewhen, but not in the next days.

In HH3 I didn't do much testing, but I only thought about a possible final combo and calculated the points: In case renewing the lockjaw works, as I described in my last post, then the combo might be worth 18600 combo points.

Another small update in HH3: You can break the cage and then quickly fall down to the blue can (or simply create a great distance between you and the broken cage). That way the gems won't spawn until you come into range again. The advantage of the trick is that you won't have to wait until the gems will spawn, thus you'll save valuable powerup time. The disadvantage is that you have to succeed in the SJ on the platform with the lever in your first try.
FC: 51.570 | CF: 129.750 | BOM: 100.899 | LOTLD: 122.659 | DOTK: 110.929 | LS: 43.200 | SBTC: 111.459 | HH: 119.849 | TOTL: 110.499

Total: 900.814

Post Reply