Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Rayfist »

I guess we can end it here sorry I had dragged it out this far.

Go to bed now Candy.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Serza5 »

Rayfist wrote:If you really want to question something you shouldn't be afraid, I do want to explain our reasonings so we can reach somewhat of an agreement.

But that's fine if you understand.
Nah it was just when you said "but I do disagree if you actually think that petition was a good idea." I misinterpreted that as you thinking I actually thought it was a good idea but then I saw the word "if" in there, so it's no biggy.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by beebo44 »

It took me a while, but I read through all of it. Everyone seemed to bring up some good points. (I'm not going to further the conversation as it seems to have ceased, but it was a good read.)

Looks like at least Shroobie, Ad and me got some quotes from it. xD
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by spiraldoor »

This thread inspired me to check out some of Anita Sarkeesian's videos for the first time to see what all the fuss was about. From what I've seen, all of the observations she makes about the systemically imbalanced portrayal of women in games are essentially and objectively correct. The way in which she states her case is refreshingly clear and logical, and the challenges she poses to the industry are moderate and reasonable – she's far from the incendiary extremist I'd been led to expect. Maybe a little smug in a couple of places, but we all have our off-days.

Granted my exposure to her work is limited to the last couple of hours, but given what I've seen, I think that anyone who genuinely disagrees with the broad strokes of her case is probably a deluded misogynistic prick.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Serza5 »

While we were going off this topic I figured that this article would be interesting for the lot of you : http://theralphretort.com/anita-sarkees ... ght-fraud/

But essentially the problem doesn't so much lie in her content (While as described earlier they it is expressed is too exaggerated and nitpicky) but the fact that there are much better people to lead on as a gaming feminist icon than someone who not only has a shady background but one which is ironic in the fact that it was anti-feminist. Especially when you consider that there are people who do consider Anita to be the "Queen of Gaming Feminism" it's not going to do the movement any good if it turns out the "Queen" is nothing but a fraud as people are just going to bring down feminism as a result, despite it just being one person.

I'd also like to casually remind you that this is a feminist here, who is saying that Anita is bullshit.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by spiraldoor »

Serza5 wrote:there are much better people to lead on as a gaming feminist icon
I expect quite a few movements are led by people who aren't optimal, but so what? She just happens to be the most visible proponent of feminism in video games at the moment. It leaves the movement open to personal attacks, sure, but that's hardly anyone's fault, and there's nothing stopping others from making their case.

I've got no particular attachment to Sarkeesian as an individual. I don't care if she only started playing video games recently, or if her speeches are ghost-written, or if she worked with some dodgy characters in the past (according to a website clearly dedicated to hating her, and bearing in mind that this would have happened under personal circumstances we know nothing about). I'm much more interested in what she has to say. Even if she turned out to be a terrible person with nasty motivations, the basic correctness of her arguments would remain unaffected.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Rayfist »

Spiraldoor wrote:I think that anyone who genuinely disagrees with the broad strokes of her case is probably a deluded misogynistic prick.
...Uh
I'm not exactly entirely sure what you mean (I honestly didn't want to get back into this but...)
I've explained it before, I see what she's saying but I don't agree with the way she's handling it.
It's just her as a person everyone hates, I don't know about the actual pin point of it all... also it's not exactly nice to call people "pricks" because they might not agree with her movement, and not for misogynistic reasons.

Another problem is she never looks up any facts, go watch her Bayonetta video, so much flawed logic and stuff she didn't even research.

It's the fact that she'll go as far as to saying "Bayonetta is for the pleasure of males and nothing more" that just comes off as a bit pretentious. I know females that enjoy Bayonetta for it's over the top action. I guess it's the fact that she really likes to "generalize" other people.

The thing is some people have different ways of looking at it, I personally, would love to see more females in games, but some people view it differently in non-misogynistic ways.

Though overall I don't think it's the message Anita is sending out that makes everyone dislike her, it's the person she is, and like Serza said, there are much better people to represent feminism in games. I think the video OCG posted earlier was pretty good. It's just how Anita goes as far as to say "All gamers are misogynists" and stuff like that, so yeah, generalizing.

Anita is pretty much acting out exactly what she was opposing, a damsel in distress.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Bradandez »

spiraldoor wrote:I think that anyone who genuinely disagrees with the broad strokes of her case is probably a deluded misogynistic prick.
Yeah, and everyone who thinks what Hitler did was wrong is nothing but a filthy Jew.

Why's it always whenever someone criticizes an important figure, their supporters automatically assumes they're some kind of horrible person?

Oh you hate Obama's policies? You're a racist!
You don't agree with Anita? You're a sexist!
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Pirez »

The real issue is that we all make a fuss about the need of gaming feminism (or lack thereof) when the problem is that society as a whole is pretty much sexist. And here Anita Sarkeesian and other claim that by curing gaming of sexism the whole society will be better. It's like popping a zit cause by cancer. Not seeing the zit doesn't change the fact that you have cancer.

Women are underrepresented/objectified because society is sexist and not the other way around. The reason we can see Hitman murdering a dozen of the sexiest nuns is that "hurr durr women don't play vidyagames. It's okay to appeal to our audience" (actual defense from Square-Enix), not because we want teenagers to be sexist. They already harass female player online.

But I still agree that Sarkeesian drives her point too far, up to a kinda disgusting point.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Keane »

Well, I do think that exposing people to more diversity in media will certainly help. Not for any current generation, but it could make a change for a future one. It's like if men collectively started wearing dresses and media portrayed it as the thing for guys to do: Kids would eat that up with no doubt and see a dress as the most masculine thing there is, because the only reason guys currently don't wear them is because we've assigned a gender to them. Gaming is clearly marketed towards men, and objectified women are often a part of that, so a result it attracts the "fucked up losing my virginity because i thought porn was real and it gave me erectile dysfunction at age 21" type guys.

But when you look at the younger kids ages 9 - 12 on just a game like Minecraft, it's scary to see how many are going into that same direction. But if you ask me, it could be different if gaming didn't help contribute to making it that way. Go to a game store and look at the wall for PS and XBox games. For every one game with actual box art, there's five games with uninspired art going "Look kids! You'll be so masculine and cool playing as this dude!". If a bunch of those were replaced with more women, I think that would make a difference. And it's not like games focusing more on women can't be appealing to guys. I've noticed that when the concept is said, most guys immediately go "But I don't want to play some game about female things that I don't relate to!" even though chances are they've seen a movie or played a game that actually did just that and they fucking loved it without thinking for a second about the female representation. Think of Alyx Vance from Half-Life or even something like Glados from Portal. We all love those characters, yet when someone goes "I'd like to see more of this" guys lose their shit.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Pirez »

I would like to think that's true but I'm skeptic. Can't explain why, though...
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by MrMcMelonLord »

spiraldoor wrote:This thread inspired me to check out some of Anita Sarkeesian's videos for the first time to see what all the fuss was about. From what I've seen, all of the observations she makes about the systemically imbalanced portrayal of women in games are essentially and objectively correct. The way in which she states her case is refreshingly clear and logical, and the challenges she poses to the industry are moderate and reasonable – she's far from the incendiary extremist I'd been led to expect. Maybe a little smug in a couple of places, but we all have our off-days.

Granted my exposure to her work is limited to the last couple of hours, but given what I've seen, I think that anyone who genuinely disagrees with the broad strokes of her case is probably a deluded misogynistic prick.
Guess that means I'm a deluded misogynistic prick.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by spiraldoor »

Bradandez wrote:
spiraldoor wrote:I think that anyone who genuinely disagrees with the broad strokes of her case is probably a deluded misogynistic prick.
Yeah, and everyone who thinks what Hitler did was wrong is nothing but a filthy Jew.

Why's it always whenever someone criticizes an important figure, their supporters automatically assumes they're some kind of horrible person?

Oh you hate Obama's policies? You're a racist!
You don't agree with Anita? You're a sexist!
You are being wilfully ignorant. As I specifically stated, I have no interest in Sarkeesian as an individual or "important figure". The Tropes vs Women in Video Games series is an articulate exploration of the way the medium portrays women, with absolutely loads of examples to support each of its points. It's concise, watchable, and its central message is welcoming, convincing and forward-looking. You can quibble over particulars such as whether Sarkeesian was fair to Bayonetta, but as I stated earlier, the basic thrust of her message is absolutely airtight. I don't think any fair, rational-minded, unbiased person would disagree with this.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Rayfist »

I think the problem just leads to, as you said, the person itself, it's hard to take the message seriously, I can understand a few mistakes here and there or iffy opinions but it's difficult to convey the message to your viewers if you throw misinformation time and time again. It's no doubt that her message isn't incorrect, but the way she's conveying that couldn't be any more wrong. That's just how I view it.

For example I was a bit misunderstood about the situation before.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Earth Gwee »

I think I know what you're talking about. I remember the conversation we had over Skype. With all the negativity that's being thrown around over one person, it's easy to get yourself caught up in that negativity and it's hard to get out of it unless you make an effort to look at it from a more objective perspective. I do agree with Sarkeesian on a few of her points, like there are definitely problems within the gaming industry and its representation of women, but I do not look up to her by any means. I do think her information comes from a very biased point of view and she's not conveying herself properly about what she's trying to tell people. Yes, sexism within the gaming community exists, but very rarely does she discuss ways of creating positive changes, at least from what I've seen. The problem is not just the gaming industry itself, though. Sexism exists everywhere. And if anybody is going to discuss it, there has to be a progressive dialogue on top of it without demonizing anybody.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Shrooblord »

And that's inherently hard to do when there's one party that's being antagonised while the other, unable to place themselves in the first's position or unwilling, tries to convince them it's 'not all that bad' even if it is really that bad. Naturally, looking at the problem in an objective way is imperative. Sadly, being purely objective is beyond human capability. No matter how removed you make yourself from the situation, you're always, always going to be influenced by your personal opinions, your emotions, your background, your gender, the colour of your breakfast cereal as it hits the milk on Tuesdays... you name it.

I wish for equality. I truly do. I simply do not understand people who try to oppress others by portraying them as lesser than themselves. There's not a fibre in my body that wishes to be like that and as such I simply cannot relate to the entire mindset. It's completely alien to me.
But being in that position is hard in a discussion. I am neither the 'evil party' you fight against nor the ones being subordinated. I can try to defend you, but in the end I cannot understand where your frustrations come from. I can try - and believe you me, I do -, but I can never feel.

I have empathy. I lack understanding. I wish to gain understanding. I wish to resolve. Sadly, I am but one person. But I like to discuss. I like to imagine that clearing this sort of thing up within a community of friends - like we are here - helps at least one other person. If any of my views puts a smile on your face, that makes me happy.

I hope we can work this out together and I know that as a community, we stand strong. Let us be that tiny, shining beacon against an evil, darker cloud of judgment and terror. I'm proud and glad to be part of a community of such well-spoken, thinking and understanding people. Seriously, you rock. Keep on rockin', RPC, and don't you never stop.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Jewish Candy »

I don't know if people will be continuing the above conversation, but this is probably the best place for this post so... sorry for possibly disrupting anything?... People can just post past me so I guess its not a big deal, I'm only venting.

A neighbour with two young children has begun to use me to look after them some evenings, to give her room to do household jobs and, when her new baby comes, feed it without being occupied with the kids. She's looking to expand this to a couple of nights a week, maybe more. I will be paid for my work.

On the one hand, it's income. I basically can't get a normal job with my condition, and I'm 20 now; I feel so guilty staying at home and not contributing to the family funds. But I am NOT a kid person. Oh, these sprouts really like me, they trust me, for the most part they listen to what I say and I'm able to contain their worst behaviour. They're not even that bad, they can be actively helpful at times. But... oh god I come home, to my beautiful babies who shit without aid, and I can't believe how any human can stand to procreate. Not to slight any who do, different strokes for different folks, but I am not that.

It's not a full-on nannying job, I know the mother wouldn't need or want that right now. And everyone does jobs they don't like. But I do not feel equipped. Even though I seem to be pretty good so far I am not right for this. She needs help, the poor woman, motherhood without local family is bloody hard and I'm the only one around who has good existing rapport with the children. Morally I have no choice - for the moment. Perhaps everything will go wrong and she'll have to let me go. But it doesn't look like it will be that way.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by incognito »

Ho ho ho, it is chridtmas and ive lost anything that i cared about in this year, my life was never good and it was bitter and cold, and now im thinking about it, i have no reason to live anymore but i won't do anything. Ho ho ho people.

Ho ho ho.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by Keane »

Shrooblord wrote:I wish for equality. I truly do. I simply do not understand people who try to oppress others by portraying them as lesser than themselves. There's not a fibre in my body that wishes to be like that and as such I simply cannot relate to the entire mindset. It's completely alien to me.
But being in that position is hard in a discussion. I am neither the 'evil party' you fight against nor the ones being subordinated. I can try to defend you, but in the end I cannot understand where your frustrations come from. I can try - and believe you me, I do -, but I can never feel.
I think it depends on what type of person you are and what your values are. I, personally, am obsessed with being aware of any kind of oppression both because I want to be aware of what's happening as well as that I want to be aware when people stand up against it. I've been glued to the whole Net Neutrality issue not so much due to the potential possibility of corrupt companies charging more for worse services, but more because of the fact that the people protesting it include supportive groups for people of colour and LGBT children. I've probably in at least ten arguments with my mother now who's constantly telling me to stop worrying about it and that she doesn't want to hear it, and the question she always asks is "You're white and straight (family doesn't know i'm bisexual), none of that is gonna affect you. Why do you care about something that doesn't hurt you?" and I think that's what it boils down to really.

My mother isn't racist, or homophobic, and she thinks things like that are wrong, but she also doesn't care about it. She can comfortably live knowing that it's happening and that it's leading to terrible things. Yes, I can't do anything to change it, and most of it is not hurting me, but that doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of caring for those people and sense of anger when I know that someone has to be restricted or hurt for an unjustified reason. And I think that hugely contributes to a society where these things occur, as well as that that mindset is shared by people who are actually in support of oppression. They just don't question anything that's being shoved down their throat, then proceed to avoid that group as much as possible, and slowly it becomes so dehumanized in their mind that they don't even view the group as human beings anymore. Gay people, to them, are just a thing that's out there, that they have little to no knowledge over, and they have no sense of being able to picture them as people with values, interests, opinions, anything. They're a character in a book or the title of a news article, but not actual people, and thus they don't care.

And I hate calling one person more intelligent than the other, but I think that someone who can think for themselves and realise that most of their prejudice is really just bullshit and they don't have as much understanding about something as they think they do, have more potential to grow as a person. I, personally, am just so done with trying to categorise people and label them and choose preferred types. I just want to be welcome towards anyone who's interested in me, and I don't want to have some sort of standard or preferred image that I compare them to. People do that shit all the time. Dating profiles with a ton of requirements about looks, or debates about whether extroverts or introverts are the better people. Oppression is just that, but on a bigger scale.
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Re: Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

Post by MLII »

whispers person in wander over yonder tag who keeps reposting art and adding stupid comments

STOP IT

or alternatively

OPEN UR ASK SO I CAN TELL YOU TO STOP IT
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